TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

All discussion regarding the Demise Test Center shard.
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Bad Religion
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Bad Religion »

Tempest wrote:
Bad Religion wrote:
Bane wrote: I am a small piece of proof for this claim. I personally have dismissed the possibility of ever playing demise solely because of the god awful casting that I experienced when I did play here, and that was long before UOS. There are a few things I don't like about demise (like the mob AI, grrrrr), but there are a lot of things that I like about it as well. The deal breaker for me though is the casting. I was about to play here now, amid rumors that it would be updating it's casting, but after reading this thread, I'm having second thoughts. If it doesn't update, I'm not going to play here. And btw, that's not a threat, I'm just being honest. I also can't promise 100% that anyone other than myself would play here if the casting was updated, but I have heard several people (duelers and non-duelers) say the same thing, that they don't want to play here because of the casting; and I'm sure if it was changed there would definitely be plenty of other people like myself that would be interested in this server.

Dueling is dead, on OSI, on most runuo shards, and if people are fighting with scripts here, it's probably worse here than anywhere else tbph. OSI style casting was a huuge draw for another community, I'm sure it would be for here too. The PvM'ers will not all rage quit. Neither will the people holding down one button to win duels. I've even spoken to one person who does that btw, and he even admit it's dumb as fk, but does it because the casting here is a joke and it's the only way to compete. I doubt the change will make such a huge difference when fighting an archer, considering OSI capped weapon speed at 1.25 seconds specifically to be at the same speed as a gheal at 2/6 casting. Does this server even have 210 stam archers with 55 SSI? I doubt it, considering that was a reforging/shame loot thing- not even stygian abyss. Besides, there's other ways to nerf archers if they need a nerf. If you think you need to keep casting as being "script friendly" just to compete with archers, you're focusing on the wrong solution.

Ultimately, updating the casting here to more OSI accurate will certainly make mage dueling (a very, very popular UO past time) relevant here; and whether it be dueling or mage 1v1's, OSI style casting will be a major selling point for the server.

If you are interested in updating your casting, feel free to ask. I'd be more than glad to help. I probably understand OSI style casting better than anyone.
The casting shouldnt be the reason you dont play here. It should be that 95% of the people that actually pvp are on some variant of archer with very OP bows that didnt even exist during this era on osi, despite 1000s of people playing there. Not only that, they have 3 second heals for 50+ hp. If you think changing casting will somehow remedy this, then by all means, come show us how.

But if you like fighting 1v5 against all archers, then Demise is the place for you!

Most of the people commenting on here rarely pvp.


One of the biggest turnoffs for me when I first started here is that it is impossible to 5x. So while I would love to see this possible on demise, it would make it even harder to combat all the archers in real pvp. Maybe if there was a nerf to bandage healing, a delay on cure pots, or something I would fully endorse the changes. However, when a 150hp archer can run a script that auto drinks a cure pot right before bandage, then almost simultaneously drinks a heal pot so they heal for 80+ damage instantly, I say no thanks.

Not only do I say no thanks to these changes, I wonder why staff is wasting their time with this bullshit instead of actual imbalances in the current meta.

I would, however, like to suggest adding a couple very active and non-bias pvpers to staff making them the "pvp managers" or part of the "balance team". When you have staff that doesnt ever pvp or see any fighting, how can they make educated decisions on what needs changing?

It's almost a joke that staff wasted so much time on this when there are far far greater issues.
And i'll say it again. Playing on this server with the current casting means you have ABSOLUTELY no skill at casting, WHATSOEVER. Yes, you may be good at awareness/utility, but getting used to this casting will only make you worse than what you can be if the casting was osi-accurate. It's like making a dumb-kid even more retarded than what they already are.

And let me address your statement about making pvpers apart of staff. Are you smoking crack? Do you realize that this is a recipe for disaster? Do you know what happened last time pvpers were made staff members? If you had any sort of intelligence you would see that only doing so will cause more trouble than there already is, it just will and can not work. You should think before you type.
Yes, I agree that script pvp is shitty(it is why I quit the first time) but so is making magery efficiently worse against the vast majority of templates being used. I'd rather fight a scripting mage while im using no scripts, then an alchy archer with 3 second heals, 50ep, mortal spam from range, and 50 damage concussion blows.

UOF is the most active free shard with the highest population. They have members of predominant guilds on their "pvp balance team" , and have had 0 issues with it.

You arent making these people GMs, you are making them part of a team of people to discuss changes. They would have 0 power other than input or persuasion. Maybe you should think about situations/options before you type.....


Ill ask again, since you guys cant see past 5 feet in front of your face, have you tested the magery changes against other fully equipped templates that are commonly seen on demise or just sit in box mage dueling each other and thinking this is the answer to all our problems?
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Bad Religion
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Bad Religion »

Tempest wrote: And i'll say it again. Playing on this server with the current casting means you have ABSOLUTELY no skill at casting, WHATSOEVER. .
And neither does playing an alchy or anatomy archer. So what happens when you make a mage require more skill but those templates all stay the same?
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Vitek-
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Vitek- »

This thread is giving me aids
Discord: Critical#2911
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atomic chicken
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by atomic chicken »

I'm not gonna quote anyone bc that's too much lol. But I have faced an archer who had pots and I did not, and I killed him pretty easily (now I don't think he was all that good but who knows?)
I think the argument of "being chased 1v5 vs archers" is weak, not bc it isn't true or doesn't happen, rather bc current casting doesn't help you there much either, bc 5 archers will most likely kill you regardless. I think you all are assuming changing to a osi 2/6 would be this drastic nerf but it really wouldn't (yes maybe a slight nerf overall), I think bane put it best when he pointed out that you can gheal in between the archer shots and very few of them have less than 2s shots with non-magical short bows. I don't think casting will fix every issue with the server, I mean I have many complaints about this server, my biggest qualm with it however is that the casting is boring and uninspiring. My guild tends not to have many problems against just archers, rather we have a problem of getting outnumbered. Ex: we can easily kill ES in a 4v4 when they're on 4 archers (or 3 + Ariel) but in a 2v8 vs loop we might run into some problems.
I'm not saying archers don't need a nerf (bc Jesus Christ networks' script is nice) but I don't think this should be the justification for not changing casting. I don't think either casting dramatically affects the ability to play vs an archer rather, I think the imbalance is possibly on the archer's side. also, I don't remember who came up with the "pvm lives matter" argument but I think nerfing archers (which we almost all agree would be a good idea) would probably piss off more pvmers than a casting change bc there are more archers.
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Legacy
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Legacy »

This casting has been in this server since forever. We are all used to it. We also used to OP archers. It really makes no sense to change this after a ELEVEN YEARS of it being like this. Specially if it replicates the nature of OSI's casting. You will appease about 20 people and piss off basically everyone else. This frenetic, hyper fast PvP is what makes Demise Demise.

That said, Loop will be very happy to kill mages with our archers while they try to greater heal instead of mini heal spam. ;)
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Reefer
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Reefer »

Legacy wrote:This casting has been in this server since forever. We are all used to it. We also used to OP archers. It really makes no sense to change this after a ELEVEN YEARS of it being like this. Specially if it replicates the nature of OSI's casting. You will appease about 20 people and piss off basically everyone else. This frenetic, hyper fast PvP is what makes Demise Demise.

That said, Loop will be very happy to kill mages with our archers while they try to greater heal instead of mini heal spam. ;)
Ever hear of parry bandage mages? The casting wasn't as bad when it was just Razor, with steam it makes this server dog shit and it makes the dog shit people stay alive longer than they should. I'll gladly kill your archers with that casting, good luck killing a group of 5+ magds with 45 dci, parry and bandages.
atomic chicken
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by atomic chicken »

I mean, I'm not dying to a loop archer 1v1. Also, I think both sides may be over-representing the amount of people who will be pissed off/appease, I just know a big chunk (I'd even say a majority) of players in my guild want the change. Maybe some people might be upset also I know if there was fresh ml server with true 2/6 I'd play it over hear in a heartbeat and I know of quite a few players who would too.
I think saying "it's been so long" is not an argument bc just bc something has happened for a long time doesn't mean it's good. Also, I think it's an effective solution to the one button mages (although disabling some steam features would be a nice fix too, but I'd rather them in conjunction). And don't kid yourself loop isn't strong bc of any individual mvp players, rather y'all are strong bc y'all can field 8-14 dudes at a time. And I'd gladly take any loop (or any guild) in an even fight (especially if no scripts were allowed, but demise loves their scripts so I don't expect anything less).
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Legacy
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Legacy »

Reefer wrote:
Legacy wrote:This casting has been in this server since forever. We are all used to it. We also used to OP archers. It really makes no sense to change this after a ELEVEN YEARS of it being like this. Specially if it replicates the nature of OSI's casting. You will appease about 20 people and piss off basically everyone else. This frenetic, hyper fast PvP is what makes Demise Demise.

That said, Loop will be very happy to kill mages with our archers while they try to greater heal instead of mini heal spam. ;)
Ever hear of parry bandage mages? The casting wasn't as bad when it was just Razor, with steam it makes this server dog shit and it makes the dog shit people stay alive longer than they should. I'll gladly kill your archers with that casting, good luck killing a group of 5+ magds with 45 dci, parry and bandages.
Yeah, I have. They are purely defensive templates which *everyone* will have to play because they would be the only thing able to remotely stand a horde of archers. It would then kill diversity in the field.

As for the casting, this is coming from someone who used to devastate whole guilds on my own because no one could cast fast: It's better now that everyone is even.
Lucifall
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Legacy
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Legacy »

Are you guys seriously bringing up mage vs archer 1v1 into this? 1v1 it's even, it's okay.

But 98% of the PvP here is a massive field fight with up to four guilds fighting each other with 8-10 people. With my guild having archers that can take out 80% off a player's life, alone, with said victim having max HPI and high str.

Your one vs one matters little then.
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atomic chicken
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by atomic chicken »

I think you literally read the first sentence and then didn't respond to anything else I said. And I don't think it's ever been 4 guilds with 8 (in the big fights) it's normally loop has 8-12, hz has 8-10, nwo is like 6-8 and kvg has 2-8 depending on a really good day. My main point Today has been, the problem in moments when I die are normally not bc of archers rather it's bc we are normally outnumbered, as I said we can easily take a 4v4 vs ES archers (this is true probably for most groups) but the problem is when it's a 2-3v8 vs some group like loop.
it was an argument stating that archers may be strong but I think you all are overemphasizing them slightly, they are not these unbeatable characters in either 2/6 environment, rather they are good and strong and need a nerf but my argument was to emphasize that they are not so op that casting would change much about them. We usually just sync drop em and they fall pretty easily (if done properly ofc).
Last edited by atomic chicken on June 24th, 2017, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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atomic chicken
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by atomic chicken »

Also, I mean yes you can hit someone with 2 procs from a yumi, get both hitspells or velocity off and hit me down to 20%. But normally that doesn't happen bc you'll miss one shot. Also, that's not a reason casting should stay the same, rather that's a reason archers maybe should get nerfed? Maybe I don't understand the logic behind your argument? Maybe there is none?
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Legacy
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Legacy »

Archers aren't getting nerfed. They work as intended.

I am not getting involved in shitty ego fights, which is why I didn't reply to the rest. There's the PvP forum for that if you want to discuss who's better, who wins in even fights, etc. (but just so you don't get left in the void, I haven't lost a single even fight to anyone but Hz with MB leading them).

What I am doing here is stating a fact: we have archers who can easily take 80% of someone's life with a single special. If it's 1v1, they can g-heal and pot. But in a massive fight the only thing keeping the victim alive is mini heal spam from multiple sources, with said sources being also attacked at frenetic speeds from all sides, disturbed non-stop. If a guy synchs a dismount and a double shot, most of the time I don't even have time to finish casting my Fs because the unlucky guy is already dead. That's just two guys. In a field fight this is multiplied and can be even worse, with two dismounters and two special spammers.

Also, casting as is now gives more margin for more skilled players to win vs different odds, and escape dire situations.

Now, the other side is PvM. I am basing my views mostly on what I see in field fights, but I know a really big part of the shard doesn't even sets foot in fel. They are also all used to casting like this, have been playing like this since forever, and would have to completely change the playstyle they enjoy just to appease a smaller portion of the shard. PvM is already pretty dominated by sampires, with some SW necro guys here and there.

And, for my personal opinion, I don't want a shard where everyone is either an archer, a sampire or a parry mage. I'd just move to another which has OSI (or RunUO turbo) casting but no ML bows, runics and stuff.
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Reefer
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Reefer »

I guess you didn't read about a parry bandage mage.
atomic chicken
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by atomic chicken »

Aight, the point wasnt to shit talk, the point was to say from personal experience i dont find archers being the problem, as i showed the best ability to have a control group that was even numbers and archers vs mages and how we beat them, showing it is possible. And that the problems some are associating with archers are bc of being outnumbered (not all). Alot of people think they should be nerfed, i personally could care less about the nerf but i wont stop the nerf the archer bandwagon. I dont see how casting would affect that many pvmers, you're right sampires are dominant, then maybe a few SW necros but those are normally for just spawns. Also, pvmer adjustment won't be so rigid, they will be able to adjust bc monsters dont cast at 2/6, luckily.
I mean i cant read the minds of the developers/staff so idk if there is going to be a nerf, also saying there will never be a balancing mechanic is asinine, but hey the staff will do what they feel is best.
I dont think the server will fill up with parry mages and archers, we already have a million archers so that's inevitable, i know of 2 parry mages (myself and my buddy) and I also play a necromage and tactics mage. the parry mage was only made bc my other buddy and i were always outnumbered and needed to be able to survive the hordes.
Also, I think mini-healing is a terrible strategy, I emphasize to all of my guildmates that gheal is more effective 90% of the time, bc an archer can mortal inbetween miniheals much easier than gheals (also it's better to use it during mage sync dumps too).
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Legacy
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Re: TC Update June 18, 2017 - OSI Casting

Post by Legacy »

Alright.

I also prefer timed g-heals. I also prefer them because they also heal more in a time/heal ratio and I can time huge chunks of healing in between damages. However, vs constant damage, mini heals has very good uses, specially when you don't exactly know when the mortal is getting removed, as it's a constant stream of healing.

As for the parry mage thing,, I think I addressed that earlier, but just to be clear: We don't have many now because current templates can stand toe to toe vs archers. I am not talking about the current situation, but the future situation. There's also one more thing that may force us to play parry mages in the future, which is dexxers with the new poisons. If I recall correctly, they have slightly harder chance to be cured. Bleed nox may not be a problem now, but it may in the future with different casting.

As for the PvM aspect, they aren't really talking here. They don't usually pertake in discussions here, in fact, so we must be specially careful about them. But they make a bigger part of the mage use tham PvP does, even with the predominance of sampires. That is not just champ spawners, but actual necro sw tamers who kill stuff like blood elementals. They should be heard.
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